Yesterday we retweeted an observation about how the smartest people work at Big 4 firms hoping for some good discussion and discussion did in fact ensue. Decent discussion, actually. It warms my cold black heart to know that at least in our little corner of the internet people with differing opinions are still capable of having a healthy conversation among themselves.
Anyway, thought the back and forth was worth sharing.
Here’s the tweet that started it:
There’s a lot of shit talk about the Big 4 recently, but I’d like to say that almost all of the super smart people I’ve worked with in my career were at my B4 firm, and other B4 firms I’ve worked with since I’ve been in private industry. @going_concern
— Big4Veteran (@Big4Veteran) June 30, 2022
Almost all of the dumbest and/or laziest people I’ve met have been in private industry (usually not in accounting). @going_concern
— Big4Veteran (@Big4Veteran) June 30, 2022
Before we get to responses I’d like to make one thing clear: I don’t think anyone is doubting the intelligence of people who work for Big 4 firms. Not around here, anyway. Though we have been relentlessly ragging on these firms for well over a decade, those criticisms are aimed squarely at the firms themselves — self-serving press releases, abuse of business jargon, questionable ethics, treating their people like emotionless robots who require little sleep, and of course the beloved low-pay-but-record-revenue model — and not the people who work there. Unless the people do something stupid, then yeah, sure. But mainly it’s the firms.
Without further ado as I’ve ado’d enough already, here are some good takes from yesterday’s discussion. I’ve done my best to organize them by microdiscussion.
I agree, the problems throughout public accounting aren’t due to a lack of intelligence. You have to be smart to make it to the top, especially at the B4. The problems are primarily due to profit incentives that lead to poor decisions, IMO..
— Lisa Hemann (@LisamarieHemann) June 30, 2022
I agree. There will always be problems with the concept of an independent audit when the auditors are being paid by the auditee.
But I assert that there’s nowhere better to start an accounting career than at a Big 4 firm. Nowhere. And that ain’t changing anytime soon.
— Big4Veteran (@Big4Veteran) June 30, 2022
He’s not wrong however his last point is part of the problem. Big 4 firms aren’t incentivized to improve their model because, much like Fallout 76, it just works. Moving on…
I’ve seen extremes of talent at the Big 4, ex-Big 4 and never Big 4.
All I can conclude is that smart people thrive anywhere and rotten apples also turn up anywhere. 🤷♀️ Don’t let a firm that’s on (or not on) your CV define you as a business adviser.
— Shona C Barker 🚀 (@ShonaCBarker) June 30, 2022
The best 3rd year staff I had was in industry, and he never worked in public. And I had some pretty notable staff in public.
— ᴛᴏɴʏ ᴡᴜᴇɴᴄʜ (@twuench) June 30, 2022
And a bit of bickering here:
My experience is the same. But it’s not the point.
The complaints about B4 are legitimate.
Sure the best ppl from school typically go B4 but that’s partially due to “prestige” and intense recruiting.
The key though is that the best ppl leave B4 bc they can do better elsewhere.
— Abir, unCPA (@AbirCPA) June 30, 2022
I disagree. The best people make partner Big 4.
— Big4Veteran (@Big4Veteran) June 30, 2022
NEVER. EVER. TRUE.
I write comedy and I am ROFL reading this!
— C.P. Aiden (@CPAiden1) June 30, 2022
It depends on how you define “best”. I’m not defining it as a good person. For purposes of my tweet above, I am defining best as “smart”.
— Big4Veteran (@Big4Veteran) June 30, 2022
The people who THINK they are the smartest, maybe. The smartest got out as staff.
…oh, and all the ones who have no idea what they want to do when they grow up so they hang around long enough and end up being partners. (this was 1/2 the partners in my last EY office)
— C.P. Aiden (@CPAiden1) June 30, 2022
This is my point.
Stay = Best at memorizing audit standards. Filling checklists. Tolerating bs + politics.
If you’re actually an intelligent person who likes to drive value, think outside the box, and solve challenging problems you GTFO from audit!
— Abir, unCPA (@AbirCPA) June 30, 2022
A reasonable person could argue that it takes quite a bit of intelligence to play the politics required the further you go up the Big 4 ladder. Perhaps more social intelligence than book-learnin’ but intelligence nonetheless.
How about this one: is becoming a partner nowadays much harder than it was in the 90s? And does the partner track appeal to an entirely different caliber of person than it did back then?
I suppose this comes down to anecdotal experience but I’d strongly disagree there.
The older partners were definitely special people. But they became partners like 30 years ago. Different time.
The people who stay to partner nowadays. Not impressive.
— Abir, unCPA (@AbirCPA) June 30, 2022
I don’t know if there are any studies out there, but I’d like to see a companion of the average partner’s GPA, SAT scores, extracurricular activities, etc. today versus 30 years ago. At a minimum, it’s a lot more competitive to make partner now, and there are fewer of them.
— Big4Veteran (@Big4Veteran) June 30, 2022
The firms aren’t admitting as many partners as they used to, and it takes more years to make partner than it used to. And the technical accounting and auditing standards are more complex and stringent now.
— Big4Veteran (@Big4Veteran) June 30, 2022
I agree there – I look back at when I left the audit side 10 years ago compared to the technical chops needed now, including data, complex standards, etc – and it’s night and day. Sure in any firm you’ll have some duds who get through but most who make partner are very smart.
— Pat ‘4 Putt Champion’ Sheridan (@accountingninja) June 30, 2022
And an aside to the “back in my day” discussion:
Big 4 has been getting watered down since mid-90s w/technology. Started seeing crap partners when I was a staff in mid-2000s. I’d say the best accountants probably don’t make partner anymore.
— ᴛᴏɴʏ ᴡᴜᴇɴᴄʜ (@twuench) June 30, 2022
I would be interested to know how you’re determining if a partner is crap or not. As someone with 12 years (and counting) in b4 the newer partners are often more impressive and better than the old guard, especially if audit quality is your barometer.
— Ryan Gruver (@rgruver) June 30, 2022
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Well, I agree that it definitely requires intelligence to go on the top of Big 4 ladder. I believe that Big 4 accountants are more smarter than the industry accountants. New partners in B4 are more aggressive towards success.
With the economic pressures and technological advances, you’d be fucking nuts stay at big4 until Partner. Might as well leave so you can destress.