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Is Staying in Public Accounting Until Making Manager Worth It?

You should stay until you at least make manager.

How many times have you heard those words? Whether in a partner’s office or at the bottom of a happy hour drink, it also seems as though your best interests are being put first. But really, is that the case?

Before the comments state “every market is different, how dare you make a generalization,” guess what? I’m going to generalize. Sorry, but unless a 2nd year senior in St. Louis emails me with market data, I have no data to base an opinion on. I write about what I know, and what I know is financial services. Kapeesh?


(Send me info…please).

Let’s compare the career paths of two auditors, Jeff and Tanya. Both started at the same time and are now 2nd year senior associates, entering into that dark year before potential promotion to manager (notwithstanding personal performance or economic indicators, of course).

Both had “the talk” with leadership about their respective careers and receive the you should stay to make manager conversation. Jeff decides to stay and put in at least another year to receive the promotion, but Tanya decides to enter into the private industry. Fast forward a few years:

Tanya, 2006 college graduate, CPA

Fall 2010: Four years of public accounting experience

Fall 2010: Lands job in private industry

Fall 2011: In private industry

Fall 2012: Still in private industry, wants a new job

Jeff, 2006 college graduate, CPA

Fall 2010: Four years of public accounting experience

Fall 2010: Stays in public accounting

Fall 2011: Stays in public accounting, promoted to manager

Fall 2012: Still in public accounting, wants a new job

Make the following assumptions:

• Tanya received a market-rate bump in pay when she left public (10-15%).
• Tanya stayed in the “typical” career path with someone with her experience (i.e. she didn’t leave financial services audit to work for Teach for America).
• Tanya did not receive a promotion while in private (although possible).
• Jeff stayed for a year after making be promoted because he bought into the “you need to stay one year after making manager” mantra.

Now, who do you think is the more attractive candidate for a job in private for someone with six years of financial services experience? Discuss below. My opinion and follow up will kick off Monday’s blog post.

If you’re reading this from the (un)comfort of your desk, please let me know why in the world you’re not doing one of the following:

a. Drinking with interns
b. Drinking with strangers at a crowded World Cup bar
c. Instituting your own summer hours and – yup, you guessed it – drinking

Cheers to your weekend and the World Cup team of your choice.

If You Were Expecting a Nice Breezy Internship with Plante & Moran, You’re Going to Be Disappointed

This is serious P&M interns. You probably thought this little summer jaunt at P&M would be just an easy way to get some overtime hours and blow all your money on booze. Well. Actually, it might be you’ll also be expected to walk in on Monday and pull your weight.

Coffee jockeys? No. Xerox duty? Of course but it will be only the important documents. But scavenger hunts? Forget it. The only scavenger hunt you’ll be going is for material misstatements.

Annually, more than 100 students experience a three to four month paid internship. The latest round of students will begin their internships on June 14 in Michigan, Ohio and Illinois firm offices. On the agenda? An Intern Summit, which is a two-day, off-site meeting focused mainly on team-building and community service projects. At the end, interns give a formal presentation on their reflections and lessons learned from the experience.
[…]
“As an assurance intern, I was given the opportunity to go into the field and perform real audit work, not just sit behind a desk or get people their coffee,” said Staci Tobe, a former Plante & Moran intern and Michigan University student. “I also appreciated the firm’s open door policy. I never expected to be able to walk into a partner’s office and seek advice, but Plante & Moran encouraged it.”

Presentations on team building! Real audit work! Getting a partner’s advice! Oh, and no short sleeves because you’ll be expected to roll them up and bare arms aren’t acceptable.

AICPA: CFOs Want More Input from Auditors on IT Matters

This story is republished from CFOZone, where you’ll find news, analysis and professional networking tools for finance executives.

Certified Public Accountants are increasingly being asked to solve information technology problems for clients and prospective clients, according to a survey by the American Institute of Certified Public Accountants.

But that raises a potential conflict of interest of the sort that led the Securities and Exchange Commission to keep auditing and IT consulting separate. The pressure for auditors to help provide IT solutions will persist nonetheless, says the AICPA.


“The tide has really turned this year with the economy and increasing regulations,” said Joel Lanz, co-chair of the AICPA’s Technology Initiatives task force in a prepared statement.

“As small and medium-sized companies increasingly place IT under their chief financial officers, it’s becoming much more of a broad scope of responsibility,” added Ron Box, Lanz’s co-chair.

With a renewed focus on IT-related issues, the survey makes clear that CPAs need to be literate about information technology in order to collaborate effectively with clients and their IT partners.

Data security clearly is driving the new interest, and CPAs believe the issue will persist in importance for years, the survey suggests.

The biggest surprise from the survey, Lanz told CFOZone, is the fact that “CPAs are not only providing guidance on financial issues, but there is an expectation by audit committees that CPAs could advise on different IT governance issues. CPAs are now commenting to audit committees about business operations in addition to pure financial issues.”

It’s not that CPAs are expected to be the technology expert, but the expectation is that the CPA is able to provide business insight and IT guidance which then enables their clients to effectively leverage their technology to enhance the businesses value, he added.

Is this simply recreating the problem that led to the separation post-Enron and WorldCom of audit services from consulting, much of which was IT oriented? There’s the potential for a conflict of interest here, and a slippery slope toward bad audits as result. SEC rules specifically say audit firms cannot provide IT consulting services on matters that relate to financial reporting for the same client. And the audit committee must sign off on other types of consulting services.

Lanz concedes that CPAs will have to be careful. “It is a fine line,” said Janis Parthun, senior technical manager – IT, for AICPA, but she added that CPAs can help companies avoid problem here. “Sometimes audit committees do need some education in these areas and this is where they can reach out to CPAs that have some understanding of IT to give the audit committee options to make the right decision.”

Lanz adds says that the AICPA has helped on this front with some recent guidelines. “Recent standards provide CPAs with specific criteria for when they need to communicate with audit committees, as well as the type of communication required,” he said.

A spokesman for the Securities and Exchange Commission declined to comment on the trend.

Job of the Day: Morgan Stanley Needs a Tax Associate

Morgan Stanley is looking for a tax associate with a specialty in real estate to join its alternative funds group in its Park Ridge, Illinois location.

The position requires a minimum of three years experience with public accounting experience and a Masters in Tax being a plus. CPA is preferred.


Company: Morgan Stanley

Title: Associate – Tax – Alternative Funds – Real Estate

Location: Park Ridge, IL

Description: Responsibilities include all aspects of tax compliance and coordination with others (including tax attorneys, outside counsel, business unit, etc.) regarding planning.

Responsibilities: Review of federal and state and local compliance from outside service provider including coordination and monitory to ensure accurate and timely; Supervise day-to-day activity of staff and perform efficient review of their work; Work with Operations and Controllers on gathering information; Assist as requested in the independent accountant’s financial statement audit and recurring tax provision processes; Assist with federal and state and local tax return audits and prepare responses to notices issued by taxing authorities; Participate in various personnel actions including, but not limited to performance appraisals; Identify opportunities for process improvements including technology advancements and coordinate with the MS Tax technology team to develop those enhancements; Develop and maintain relationships with various other departments.

Qualifications/Skills: Motivated, team oriented self starter who desires a broad range of tax issues and has the ability to work effectively and efficiently in an environment with all levels of personnel, adept at working in a fast-paced, deadline oriented environment; Willingness to be hands-on as well as a desire to supervise and develop staff; Excellent oral and written communications, analytical and organizational skills are required; Requires a minimum of three years of tax experience, with public accounting experience a plus. Prior experience in supervising positions a plus; Real Estate partnership experience required; Certification as a CPA preferred ; Requires bachelor’s degree, Master in Tax a plus but not required; Strong PC skills required

See the entire description over at the GC Career Center and visit the main page for all your job search needs.

No Mr. Wendt, Having Played an Accountant on TV Won’t Help Your Tax Problem

When who played one of the most treasured accountants in television history can’t manage to use his fictional expertise to get themselves out of a tax jam, you have to start asking yourself – what chance do any other future thespians that play accountants have?


Robert Snell over at Tax Watchdog reports that George Wendt owes the state of California $30,000 in taxes, citing public records.

Robert did his usual diligence asking for the celebrity’s point of view and he managed to get Norm’s agent, Arthur Toretzky who was less than thrilled with the inquiry. Here’s a portion of his response to Robert’s email:

Do you reporters get a charge out of writing this stuff? George is one of the nicest guys in the world and you want to embarrass him. I just don’t get it. How this wold [sic] has changed. Good luck with getting whatever information you need, and I hope this at least puts you in contention for a Pulitzer.

Not sure if Robert responded to Artie but on Tax Watchdog it’s pretty clear why this is important:

Every year, about $345 billion in federal taxes are either late or unpaid, according to the IRS, ripping open holes in budgets and shortchanging schools and public safety. That forces taxpayers to cough up more than their fair share, tax experts say.

Unless you don’t think that’s a big deal. Besides, if he had Ted Danson’s business manager maybe this wouldn’t have happened.

The KPMG New York Exodus Picks Up Steam

Last month we touched on a possible exodus starting in KPMG’s New York office with the news that a number of people had given their notice to leave the firm. A few readers were not impressed with the news including Hyperbole:

6 people leave a massive office in an industry that even in a slow year expects 10-15% voluntary turn. I’m all for ripping on the firms, but this is a little ridiculous…

“DAMANGE CONTROL BEGINNING: 26 FANS LEAVE LAKERS GAME AT HALF TIME

EXODUS!!!!”


However, another commenter, blah felt that this was just the beginning:

I believe the exodus is coming. Folks are pretty pissed off these days and there are a lot of career opportunities out there right now for us.

Now, here we are, a month later and it sounds as though the numbers are increasing quickly as we have had multiple sources confirm that approximately 12-15 professionals have given recent notice between the banking and asset management groups – two of the largest in the New York office. The majority being SA2s, SA3s as well as experienced managers.

Our sources have indicated that many more are actively looking and that this is not the “normal attrition” that is expected by a firm. One recent SA that gave their notice was kind enough to send us a copy of their farewell email that sounds – oddly – inspired. After drying your eyes (or throwing up in your mouth), feel free to discuss the latest conga line going out of 345 Park.

Allow me to leave you with a few words of inspiration on this most joyous day:

BLOOD ALONE MOVES THE WHEELS OF HISTORY!

Have you ever asked yourselves in an hour of meditation – which everyone finds during the day – how long we have been striving for greatness?

Not only the years we’ve been at war the war of work but from the moment as a child, when we realize the world could be conquered. It has been a lifetime struggle a never-ending fight, I say to you and you will understand that it is a privilege to fight. WE ARE WARRIORS! Accountants of New York City, I ask you once more rise and be worthy of this historical hour. No revolution is worth anything unless it can defend itself. Some people will tell you accountant is a bad word. They’ll conjure up images of used car dealers, and door to door charlatans. This is our duty to change their perception. I say, accountants of the world… unite. We must never acquiesce, for it is together… TOGETHER THAT WE PREVAIL. WE MUST NEVER CEDE CONTROL OF THE MOTHERLAND…

Will a CMA or CFM Get You Some Kind of CPA Exam “Credit”?

The short answer is no. The medium answer is hell no and the long answer is the rest of this post but first, let’s address the reader question, shall we?

Will any of the sections passed for the CMA and/or CFM count against the requirements for the CPA examination? In other words, can I avoid taking certain sections of the CPA examination because I have passed the CMA and CFM?


ALL candidates have to pass all four parts of the exam and for the lucky ones, there’s even a fifth part to worry about called ethics but that’s not all of you so we won’t get into that. There is no credit given for life experience, other letters after your name, certifications, and/or letters from your Mom attesting to your good moral character. You don’t get extra credit for making your written communications 15 paragraphs long, nor do you get a bonus for having the prettiest scribbles on your scratch paper. Nothing. Sorry kid but them’s the breaks.

CMAs are not automatically eligible to sit for the CPA exam simply because they are CMAs however required coursework for both credentials are similar so if you are eligible to pursue one, you may be eligible to pursue the other without additional education. This career track is best accomplished by getting an MBA or Masters in accounting, not completing your Bachelor’s and simply picking up a few extra units to fulfill the CPA’s 150 hour requirement.

If you are into it, check out some recent IMA numbers on salary potential for CMAs and CPAs. So while you won’t be able to get out of any of the usual CPA exam gruntwork, it still might be worth it to pursue anyway. And bonus, you might just be able to count your CPE units twice for both designations.

Adrienne Gonzalez is the founder of Jr. Deputy Accountant, a former CPA wrangler and a Going Concern contributor . You can see more of her posts here and all posts on the CPA Exam here.

Accounting News Roundup: Dell Looks to Settle SEC Probe; BP’s Request for Tax Docs Causes Issues for Fishing Communities; Salesforce CFO: We Need Sales People! | 06.11.10

Dell, CEO Are in Talks to Settle SEC Probe [WSJ]
The SEC’s probe, launched in 2006, into Dell had initially focused on some accounting manipulation that has now ensnared founder and CEO Michael Dell focusing on disclosure and omissions related to Intel Corp. and negligence-based fraud charges.

The Journal reports that the possible fraud charges “suggests that the SEC may suspect that Mr. Dell unintentionally made statements that he should have known were misleading.”

In anticipation of the settlement, the company will restate its most recent earnings report, reducing its net income by $100 million.


The fishermen and the tax man [Los Angeles Times]
BP is requesting tax records from people in fishing communities in order process claims of lost work related to the Deepwater Horizon spill. Those seeking payment need to submit a commercial fishing license, proof of residence and tax statements. The problem is that many of these people do not keep tax records since they are paid in cash for their work.

More than 25,000 claims have been submitted so far and payments to about 12,000 have been made, totaling $36 million, according to the LA Times.

BP, through Graham MacEwan says that there’s a plan although like most of this crisis, the company isn’t sure how it will be fixed, “BP Chief Operating Officer Doug Suttles has been telling parish council members over the past few days that if someone’s tax documents are not available, we will find other metrics. I don’t know exactly how we are going to do that yet.”

Salesforce CFO: Company Aggressively Hiring Sales Staff [Dow Jones]
Cloud trailblazer Salesforce.com is looking to add more sales personnel, having added 18,000 new customers over the last 12 months according to CFO Graham Smith.

Mr Smith also said the company is rolling out two new products in the near future including Chatter, a “a social-networking application for office collaboration” and VMforce, a collaboration with VMware, Inc. that will give Java developers a new way to deploy applications over the web.

PwC May Have Overlooked Billions in Illegal JP Morgan Transactions. Oopsie.

Now £15.7 billion may not seem like much to you if you are, say, Bill Gates or Ben Bernanke but for PwC UK, it may be the magic number that gets them into a whole steaming shitpile of trouble.

UK regulators allege that from 2002 – 2009, PwC client JP Morgan shuffled client money from its futures and options business into its own accounts, which is obviously illegal. Whether or not JP Morgan played with client money illegally is not the issue here, the issue is: will PwC be liable for signing off on JPM’s activities and failing to catch such significant shenanigans in a timely manner?


PwC did not simply audit the firm, they were hired to provide annual client reports that certified client money was safe in the event of a problem with the bank. Obviously that wasn’t the case.

The Financial Reporting Council and the Institute of Chartered Accountants of England are investigating the matter, and the Financial Services Authority has already fined P-dubs £33.3 million for co-mingling client money and bank money. That’s $48.8 million in Dirty Fed Notes if you are playing along at home.

Good luck with that, PwC. We genuinely mean that.

Inquiries mount after PwC ‘failed to notice’ mistakes [Times UK]

The Nasdaq Would Like to Know When Koss Is Going to Get Around to Submitting Some Financial Statements

Remember last month when Koss decided to file their 10-Q without financial statements? At the time the company said it was “due to delays relating to certain previously disclosed unauthorized transactions.”

In other words, we got ripped off so bad that we’re restating financial statements for half a decade and it isn’t exactly something you can whip up like a batch of maui wowie brownies.


The Nasdaq has taken note of the slight delay and has said if you don’t get us numbers by June 30, you’ll be on the pink sheets with the likes of Lehman Brothers.

CEO Michael Koss has assured everyone that it won’t come to this but obviously we’ll have to wait until the SEC posts the filing. If that doesn’t happen, you’ll be able to add “Koss Delisted by Nasdaq” to Suz’s list of destructive accomplishments.

Koss gets warning from Nasdaq [Milwaukee Business Journal]